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 Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl

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SylvesterMalone1978
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PostSubject: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:58 pm

The short of it, this is NOT a QB driven league.

Say what?

Well here's some interesting fact he through out there that at least may give you pause. I thought it was interesting series of tweet. The collective CP hive mind may be blown.

Big Ben attempted 16 passes a game in the season he won his first ring.

Is it Big Ben, Eli Manning, Rogers that turned the fortunes of Pittsburgh, NYG, Green Bay around? Seems to me they always been pretty good.

Statistically neither Brady or Big Ben's 23 SB rating screams elite to me at the times they won.

Since Tom Brady has put up elite numbers, his team hasn't won a SB, won 3 with above average numbers. But it's a QB driven league

Ben won with a rating in the 20's in his first SB.

During Pats SB runs with Pioli/Crennel/Daboll the QB rating of Tom Brady never surpassed the rating Cassel posted in 2010.

I disagree...SB have a way of getting spun overwhelmingly in the QB favor, when other factors contributed more at times.

Brady wasn't elite when he won. Like I said, myths. Research and tell me they were elite when they won. what about his second and third? Never had a higher rating than Cassel's 2010 rating...is Cassel elite?

Last 12 years 2 top 5 offenses have won SB, 5 top 10 offenses have won. Same span 5 top 5 defenses have won, 8 top 10 defenses have won SB.

In Big Ben's title runs he led the 15th and 22nd offense along with the 4th and 1st ranked defense...but it's a QB league.

if the offense can be top 10 then I would do backflips...what I am saying...ppl need to quit with the "QB league" mess.

yeah, it's a media spin job...not the statistical support needed to continue perpetuating the myth of "QB win SB".

‏From Me:

@TheFilmRoom Since according to your tweets its not a QB league is it your assertion the Chiefs can go to the SB with Cassel at the helm?

Cordell ‏@TheFilmRoom
If San Fran with Alex Smith can knock on the door along with Flacco, and Sanchez then I see it as a possibility.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:01 pm

Whether is Cassel, Stanzi, or Quin starting... This team can make a Super Bowl run! I really think this team will finally win a playoff game this year. Could easily crack top ten in rushing and defense. Even with Cassel, we should be at least top half in passing... There is waaay too much fire power.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:23 pm

I've tried making the same point about Brady, Big Ben, ect. several times. But literally everybody is too dense to comprehend the past and say, are you kidding me Brady is the best in the NFL!?! Look at all the records here broke! And my response is, yeah after he won those Super Bowls and he hasn't won one since becoming a great QB. Then their response is always something like, you're stupid.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:28 pm

But I completely agree, there is no way Cassel can't look at very minimum above average. The running game will take a lot of pressure off of him. He wont HAVE to score a lot with this defense helping him out. He can just throw it up to Bowe or Baldwin for a big play. Breaston, Wylie, McCluster can make plays in the slot. Moeaki and Boss are nice security blankets. If this line can hold up and Cassel has times to find the open man, there will literally be one or two guys open every single play. A few of those guys should be able to beat single coverage nearly every time... and they can't double/triple cover everyone.

Plus I think Daboll is going to be huge too. He's shown a lot of flashes with the few tools hes had... he has an over flowing cupboard here with great tools. Hes not going to clash with another mind here with Haley gone either.. Crennel is letting him run the show on that side.

The Chiefs will shock the nation this year. Well maybe not Rich Gannon, since he has the Chiefs ranked as the sixth best team right now.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:35 pm

I do agree you dont need a great QB to get there it sure does better your chances. Big Ben is one of the most underrated QBs ever. I'd take him all day over what we have. The last SB to have 2 average QB's was 2001 when Dilfer/Collins played.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:31 pm

Like the article says, Brady and Big Ben weren't what they are now when they first won. I don't think Eli Manning his first time was much better than Cassel either. A lot of those QB's became great after, and that's what most people think of them as even if thats not what they were at the time.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:56 pm

I dont think they turned great after the age of 30 either. Brady took the job from a very good QB due to injury and never gave it back for a second. threw for 4000 yds+ in his 2nd SB winning season if I remember right. Big Ben has always been a physical freak that can get away from extreme pressure and make plays due to size and athletic ability. They were great QBs in the making. One thing Cassel isnt. Cassel will have absolutely nothing to do with us winning any playoff game this year. The defense is going to have to be pretty special with Cassel at QB. I think they can be top 5 for sure but I dont trust the Dline to get the pressure needed in a pressure situation come playoff time. I still think they win a 1st round gme this year but no real chance of winning it all with Cassel at QB and a Dline that relies on great CB and safety coverage and LB pressure. I may be wrong on this but I think most teams that win the SB with Defense had great Dline play.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:24 am

Our DL's weakness has been NT, and that has been adressed with a physical freak.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:11 pm

No, but guys like Gannon, Green, and actually a few others turned it on pretty late in their careers. Hell the Chargers even drafted Rivers after three or four years of Brees not being good. The only difference is Brees started at a younger age.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:57 pm

Brees starting at a younger age might be a fairly important fact. I dont think those 2 late bloomers Gannon and Green ever got a ring starting. I could be wrong on that though. Dilfer is still the only terrible QB I can think of to win it all. If you think DJ is as good as R. Lewis in his prime then maybe we are gonna win it all this year.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:12 pm

You completely miss the fact that its not all about QB's to win the Super Bowl. Its not about being the best LB in football either. If it was, Manning would have several rings. Brady would be able to win a ring after becoming a great QB. Brees would have more than one. The list goes on. Having a great QB doesn't guarantee you Super Bowl victory.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:19 pm

10. Terry Bradshaw was the hardest guy to put on this list. Anyone who has four Super Bowl rings and two MVPs doesn't usually belong in a "Top 10 Worst Quarterbacks" list.

But Bradshaw threw 212 touchdown, 210 interceptions, and had a measly 70.9 rating—not very good at all. He posted one of the worst seasons ever by a QB in 1970, with six touchdowns and 24 interceptions in 13 games.

Would Bradshaw have gotten as far as he did if the Steel Curtain hadn't been his defense?

9. Big Ben is consistently average in the regular season and the post season, except in the fourth quarter when the game counts. Ben only makes the list because he had the worst performance ever for a QB on team which won the Super Bowl.

He had 123 yards and 2 interceptions in Super Bowl XL, for a QB rating of 22.6. In two Super Bowls he has a total of 349 yards, one touchdown, and three interceptions. That averages out to 174 yards, .5 touchdowns, and 1.5 interceptions. That's not very good, but he seems to find ways to win.

He also has a newer version of "The Steel Curtian" on the other side of the ball, which will now be recognized as one of the top five defenses of all time. Ben has many more years to play, and a great chance to easily come off this list and join the "10 Greatest QB's to Win a Super Bowl" list.

8. Before the Giants' defense decided to play like they were from another world last year, many people in New York and all over the world were calling for Eli's head.

This was his best year yet, stats wise. He went for 21 touchdowns, 10 interceptions, and the G-Men posted 12 wins. They were favorites in the NFC, but Eli showed his true colors against the Eagles at home.

However, Eli's stats have gotten better every year since he has been in the league and, like Big Ben, he has a great chance of making the "10 Best" list before he retires.

7. Ken played 15 seasons in the NFL. In those 15 seasons he only threw more touchdowns than interceptions five times. He had 194 touchdowns and 222 interceptions in his career for a QB rating of 75.3.

In his only Super Bowl win he was 12-19 for 180 yards, one touchdown, and one interception.

6. When Doug Williams won the MVP in Super Bowl 22 he posted amazing numbers—he had a record 340 yards and 4 touchdowns.

The Skins, as a team, set many records on offense including the most offensive yards, most rushing yards, and the most offensive touchdowns in a Super Bowl.

So how is Doug Williams on this list? In his career Doug Williams had only 100 touchdowns and 93 interceptions, with a QB rating of 69.4. That is the 3rd lowest career QB rating of any QB who has won a Super Bowl.

5. Jim Plunkett won Super Bowls 15 and 18, and was the MVP of Super Bowl 15, he threw 13-21, had 261 yards, and three touchdowns. In Super Bowl 18 he threw 16-25, had 172 yards, and one touchdown.

In both of his Super Bowl wins Plunkett was out performed by the opposing QB (Jaws, and Thiesman). By the numbers that Plunkett put up over his career, I' m shocked he even had a chance in the playoffs.

In his entire career Plunkett threw 164 touchdowns, 198 interceptions, and had the second lowest QB rating of any QB to win a Super Bowl—67.5. In 12 of his 16 seasons Plunkett threw more interceptions than touchdowns.

4. Hostetler was a third round draft pick in 1984, picked to back up Phil Simms. And that's exactly what he did until, probably the best day of his life, December, 15 1990.

Simms broke his foot that day and Hoss came in and "Managed Games" while the New York Giants defense led him to the Super Bowl against the Buffalo Bills.

In that game Hostetler went 20-32, threw 222 yards, and had 1 touchdown. He definitely owes Scott Norwood a nice steak dinner.

Hoss had some bad luck when it came to injuries in 1991, he actually broke his back, only to return the next year to back Simms up again. A couple years later he was elected to his only Pro Bowl.

In his career he threw 94 touchdowns, 71 interceptions, and had a QB rating of 80.5—not bad for a backup. That's why he is where he is. He only started 16 games in a season once in his 15 years in the league.

3. Brad Johnson has played 17 years in the NFL as a great "Game Manager". His only Super Bowl appearance came in Super Bowl 37, when the great defense of the Bucs would match up against the great offense of the Raiders.

Johnson completed 18 of 34 passes for 215 yards, with two touchdowns and one interception. The Bucs defense, however, was definitely the reason Brad has a ring. The defense scored 21 of Tampa's 48 points—matching the three touchdowns the offense scored.

Brad has put up solid numbers throughout his career, but nothing eye popping, 166 touchdowns and 122 interceptions. That's only an average of nine touchdowns per year in his 17 years.

2. Most people who aren't big football fans probably can't even answer the question, "who was the ravens QB when they won the super bowl?"

Dilfer is who everybody who is now know as "game mamagers" is compared to. He was similar to Kerry Collins on the Titans this year.

In his only Super Bowl appearance, all he had to do was not lose the game for the Ravens defense. The defense posted maybe the greatest numbers by a team in Super Bowl history.

They joined the Dolphins from Super Bowl VII and the Steelers from Super Bowl IX, as the only three teams not to allow the opposing offense to score a point (the giants had a special teams touchdown).

Baltimores defense, led by Ray Lewis, allowed the Giants to gain only 152 yards. Lewis had 4 sacks and posted 5 turnovers. I

In that game, Dilfer completed 12-26 passes for 153 yards and one touchdown. After the season he became the only QB to win a Super Bowl and be cut by his team directly afterwords.

In his career he threw 113 touchdowns, 129 interceptions, and had a QB rating of 70.2.

1. Broadway Joe may be more known for the original guarantee and off the field antics than for his less then stellar on the field contributions.

His career numbers are absolutely awful and his Super Bowl MVP numbers are not much better. In his career Joe had only 173 touchdowns and tossed 220 interceptions.

He also has the worst career QB rating by a Super Bowl QB ever, at 65.5. That's not even game manager style, that is horrid. How they beat the Colts is completely beyond me.

In the big game Joe completed 17 of 28 passes for 206 yards and no touchdowns or interceptions. If not for the guarantee he would never be recognized as a great QB.

Based on his numbers he should not be in the Hall of Fame either. If he really should be in the Hall of Fame, then almost every QB on this list should be a shoe in first ballot Hall member.

He only had two seasons with more touchdowns then interceptions.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:30 pm

How many rings did Marino win? Hes one of the best QB's ever. Shitty QB's like Sanchez and many others have at least won playoff games, Tim Tebow has even won a playoff game.

It doesn't take a great QB to make a Super Bowl run. Philip Rivers is one of the best QB's in the league, he doesn't have a ring.

Who are the best QB's to never win a ring you ask?

Dan Marino
Frank Tarkenten
Dan Fouts
Sammy Baugh
Warren Moon
Randall Cunningham
Donovan McNabb
Jim Kelly
Steve McNair
Boomer Esiason
Archie Manning
Rich Gannon
Philip Rivers
Jeff Garcia
Ron Jaworski
Daunte Culpepper
Carson Palmer
Matt Ryan
Micheal Vick

ALL of those QB's were among the best in the NFL at one point in time. No rings.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:51 pm

The Question is how many terrible QBs have ever won a ring. 1 or 2 at most with Dilfer being the most recent over a decade ago. and with the NFL changing more and more to a pass happy league than ever its going to take good QB's at least to win it all. Who is getting paid in todays NFL? QBs and WR. the best RB in the game gets 8 mil a year. best LB is at what around 10? Best QB 20 mil. Baltimore is a great team. wont win it all because of QB situation. SF is a great team wont win it all because of QB play. KC doesnt get the national credit as a great team but I think they have the potential there but wont win it all because they have the worst starter in the league at QB. I dont think Eli is great but he can play great in big stretches when it counts. Cassel cant play a big quarter when it counts.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:22 pm

The 49ers could definitely win a Super Bowl, even if Alex Smith is their QB. It wouldn't shock me one bit if it was Smith vs Cassel this year either.


TJ Yates, Tim Tebow, Andy Dalton, Alex Smith, Joe Flacco, Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford, Eli Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, and Aaron Rodgers were the 12 QB's in the playoffs last year. That is THREE elite QB's. I think even Cassel can make the playoffs and win at least a game if not more. He has arguably the best supporting cast out of all those teams. Hell it wouldn't be crazy to say Cassel is as good as half of those guys.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:27 pm

The point of this thread, Cassel if far from elite; but he is on a team that can get him a Super Bowl ring. I'd still rather it be Quin though. Still not elite, but he can make a few more big plays.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:52 pm

We are sort of on the same page Rust. We both feel like the better QB is on the bench. I personally feel like he will stay there no matter what. I think Drew Brees could be here and Pioli would make sure he backs up Cassel. Yes a mediocre QB has won a SB. Yes plenty of greats never have. But more greats have won than mediocres so your odds are better to have a good 1. Especially in todays game. I look at Cassel as the QB that will take a huge 15 yrd sack in a playoff game when the game is on the line in order to protect his comp percentage for the game. He has always held on to the ball too long and taken sacks rather than throw the ball away in order to protect his stats. I do feel this team would be a lot better with Quinn. Best case scenario for us is for Atlanta to do to Cassel what we did to Brady when Cassel got his shot and knock him out for the season in week 1.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:55 pm

I dont think we disagree on as much as it sounds. We both just take things to the opposite extremes. You just drinking too much of the red kool aid and me hatin on Pioli more than I should.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:03 pm

This defense is on the verge of being elite Ravens/Bucs. It can win us a Super Bowl. This could be similar to Big Bens first ring. Great D, great running game, great WR, and a QB who just didn't lose the game for them.

Even with the new QB trends, defense still plays a bigger role than the elite QB.

You need balance either way, Green could have won one with a little more help from the D. This defense/running game can win one with a little help from Cassel(who is going to a lot of help from Bowe/Baldwin/Breaston/Wylie/Moeaki/Boss/McCluster)

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:04 pm

Every single team ever and always in the future will have a weakness. A lot of Super Bowl teams have had more weaknesses then this squad, the key is masking that weakness.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:23 pm

You are right for sure. many have had more weaknesses. But lets look at ours right now. You yourself have said it takes 3 years for a Dlineman to adapt to the NFL game. Now a rookie NT who has tons of potential no doubt but played inferior competition in college is our year 1 savior on D? No question NT is the single most important position in our scheme. I think Berry is the best Safety in the league and Hali the best OLB though most dont agree on Hali and Berry is still awful young to be considered the best. But we have to have great play at the NT spot. Offensively I dont see how Bowe can come in and be great in a new offense if he holds out all of preseason which I think he will. And I still think Cassel is more concerned about his comp percentage than anything else. Main reason he has always had the knock of holding the ball too long and taking big sacks. The NFL has made it so easy for QBs to get rid of the ball to protect them. No doubt this team has a ton of talent. Poe at NT has tons of potential but dont expect it in year 1. I still say Mallett is gonna be a stud and hope we can trade for him if Cassel turns out to be the QB I think he is.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:15 am

The thing about NT.. its the most important position, but its also the easiest. 3-4 teams always either sign an old over the hill DT thats just huge(like the Pats did Washtington), or just sign/trade someone like Shaun Rogers or Kris Jenkins who got real fat and real real lazy to start off. Its about the only position in football where size and talent just mean way more than hard work and perfect technique. Even as a rookie, he will still be an upgrade.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I read the other day that the Chiefs finished as the#11 defense(or was that only the second half of the season)? We had 20 sacks the second half of the year once Houston started to emerge on the other side. Hes only going to be better his second year, and with an actual offseason this year. Having that presence in the middle will be huge for the whole defense, even if Poe isn't in his prime yet its still an upgrade. Berry is back which is the biggest. This is Jacksons make or break year, and I promise he will make it.. Basically his third season since he was hurt a lot the year before then we had that lockout.. and honestly he was a lot better that what the stats show... 3-4 DE's just get no love like OL unless you are the best and just a name people know.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:38 am

I think you are right about the D. and Berry being back is the biggest indeed. I just feel like we need more pressure from the line. Houston may be the biggest wild card. If he contines to get better then maybe our poor rush from the line wont be a big deal. In the end NE is still the class of the AFC and if you cant get pressure without bringing the whole house Brady will pick any secondary apart.
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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:44 am

Houston in his second year should be a huge help in sacks, and coming opposite Hali. Especially when you factor in that our NT will be able to collapse the pocket while taking on multiple blockers.. its going to help free up Jackson and Dorsey even(and Bailey when hes in). He might not be a veteran who can make a bunch of plays himself yet, but his presence will help the whole team tremendously and still be a huge upgrade over last year. Plus Crennel has a knack for making about any DL look real good, so who knows, maybe we can get huge plays from him early.

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PostSubject: Re: Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl   Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:35 pm

Jim Zorn sees dramatic improvement from Matt Cassel
Posted by Josh Alper on August 3, 2012, 10:39 AM EDT
Chiefs Camp Football AP

It’s a big year for Chiefs quarterback Matt Cassel.

The hand injury that ended his 2011 season has healed and he needs to show that his poor play before getting hurt is also a thing of the past. Cassel completed under 60 percent of his passes for the third straight season while throwing 10 touchdowns and turning the ball over 11 times in a year that saw him give away all the gains he made in 2010. He needs to be better or there’s not much chance that he’ll see the $16.5 million he’s due in 2013 and 2014.

Quarterbacks coach Jim Zorn thinks that Cassel will do that. Zorn thinks that having a full offseason this year had a profound impact on Cassel’s game and that the work should bear fruit this season.

“He’s dramatically improved because we’ve been able to spend so much time together between all the OTAs, the minicamp and now,” Zorn said, via Bill Williamson of ESPN.com. “I really feel that he is further along than he was last year. He’s really taking charge. He’s working on things that he wasn’t working on last year at this time. The way he attacks his line of scrimmage with his command, he’s changing things or keeping things on. Our tempo is much better. We’ve really improved a lot of things sooner than we did last year.”

It’s hard to envision Cassel ever becoming an elite quarterback, but easy to see him running a successful offense led by a powerful ground game. The Chiefs have Jamaal Charles back after his knee injury and they signed Peyton Hillis, which should give them the rushing attack that they weren’t able to produce after Charles’ injury last season. There’s also been a lot of talk about using tight ends Kevin Boss and Tony Moeaki quite a bit, which should give Cassel steady, low-risk options to use in the passing game.

Cassel should be in a position to succeed, in other words. If Zorn’s right, it will be a good year for the Chiefs offense.

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Great QB play not needed for the Super Bowl
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